Podcast Interview: Stacy Ennis 01/18/2023 - Why a Book Outline Matters and how to Create One

Stacy Ennis – Why a Book Outline Matters and how to Create One

Nonfiction Authors Association Podcast | January 18, 2023

“A well planned outline–a beautifully structured book at that outline level–makes sure that your book has structural integrity, it supports your success in finishing the draft, and it also gives you something to plan with. So you can set real goals for yourself, deadlines for yourself, and track your progress along the way.”
-Stacy Ennis

About Stacy Ennis

Stacy Ennis is a best-selling author, coach, and speaker on a mission to help leaders clarify their ideas and harness their unique story to make an impact. Along with being the founder of Nonfiction Book School, an accelerated author program, her background includes ghostwriting for a Nobel Prize winner in medicine and leading as executive editor of Sam’s Club’s Healthy Living Made Simple, a publication that reached around 11 million readers. Her best-selling book, co-written with Ron Price, is Growing Influence: A Story of How to Lead with Character, Expertise, and Impact. The Nonfiction Book School live program begins February 14, 2023.

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Show Notes

Links

In this episode…

Why book outlines are important.
The power of a well planned outline.
What a book concept is.
Outlining your whole book vs. chapter outlining.
The difference between narrative arc and chapter sequence.
Tips on creating a writing plan.
How to start writing your book after creating an outline.
The importance of editing and project management when writing your book.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the interview series for the Nonfiction Authors Association. Today’s session is with Stacy Ennis and we will be talking about why a book outline matters and how to create one. I’m Carla King, your host, and I’m happy to have you with us today. This interview will last only 30 minutes and you can find the replay on our Nonfiction Authors Association website and social media platforms including YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.

And now I’d like to introduce our guest.

Stacy, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.

Stacy Ennis 1:16

Carla, I’m so excited for this conversation all about book outlines, which is one of my favorite topics.

Carla King 1:22

Yes, and I know in fiction and creative nonfiction, there are pantsers and there are planners or plotters, right? So nonfiction lends itself much better to outlining, doesn’t it?

Stacy Ennis 1:35

Definitely, definitely. And if you also are writing this book as part of a bigger vision– you have some kind of goal to grow your business or make an impact of some kind–it also, I think, necessitates outlining. So that you really understand how that book fits into that big vision. So there’s a lot around even the physical document–that documentation–of your outline.

Carla King 1:58

So maybe it’s a little bit of a business plan. Well, should we just start there? Why is it important? And why is it the number one tool, in your opinion, for success?

Stacy Ennis 2:07

A lot of people feel that a book outline is a waste of time, or it should be done at minimum. Like, ‘I’m just going to create this little sketch and then I’m going to sit down and start writing.’ Those of us in the industry–and I bet you will agree with this, Carla–know that there’s this famous abandonment point of 20,000 words when people are working on a draft. It’s something that we all talk about a lot. You get into the draft, you get to about 20,000 words–that’s somebody who’s in it, they really want to write this book, and they hit around 20,000 words, and they get stuck.

And so the outline does a few things for you. One, it helps you when you get to that point, so that you can actually get over that 20,000 word point, and finish the draft strong. It also helps ensure–we’re going to talk later about a book concept. It also helps ensure, at a really high level, that this book that you’re working on–you really understand how it fits into your big vision for impact, who your ideal reader is, what the key takeaways are of the book, what the core message of the book is. And so even at that really foundational level, you have a guide as you’re writing the whole book.

I started my career in book editing. So that was where I got my start. And I did that for many years before I moved into ghostwriting, and then coaching. And one of the things that was so hard as a book editor was getting a draft from an author, and then having to come back to them and say, ‘This needs a total revamp. And we need to restructure.’ I’ve actually had a couple of cases where I said, ‘This needs a rewrite.’ And that is painful–it’s painful to deliver, and it’s painful to hear as an author. So a well planned outline–a beautifully structured book at that outline level–makes sure that your book has structural integrity, it supports your success in finishing the draft, and it also gives you something to plan with. So you can set real goals for yourself, deadlines for yourself, and track your progress along the way.

And then lastly, from a creative standpoint, it actually frees you to create. And this is where a lot of people will say, ‘Well, I don’t like to plan, because then it’s going to stifle my creativity, and I’m not going to be able to be free when I’m writing.’ But it actually does the absolute reverse of that. When you do all of the basic structural work ahead of time, there’s some cool things that happen at a neurological level for planning–just as you sleep, or as you get ready to do your next writing session. It also frees you of the hard work of structure, so that when you sit down to write, you can just create. It really enables productivity and creativity which is, I think, a really cool bonus of creating an outline.

Carla King 5:04

I love that. And I think Ernest Hemingway always wrote the first sentence of his next chapter before he went to bed at night, so he had somewhere to start. And I know that, in travel writing, and creative nonfiction, as well as business books, and psychology, and sports, and all of that, and creative nonfiction–like memoir–it can also be pretty important. Because I see, especially memoirists, trying to fit every aspect of their life in a memoir that’s not an autobiography. And outlining can help them stay on track, correct?

Stacy Ennis 5:46

Absolutely, yes. One of the powerful aspects of an outline is–it lets you begin vetting things before you invest the time and energy to write it. And you’re 100%–that’s such a great point with memoir, creative nonfiction, or even a big idea story book, where you’re really telling your story, but it’s organized around a big idea. One of the traps that people can fall into is telling all the stories, which actually has the reverse effect. It disengages your reader, the reader loses the thread on what’s important.

The other thing it also helps you do, from a memoir perspective–and this was something I learned–I studied memoir, it was part of my larger graduate program. I took a memoir class. and I had this great professor. And I wrote a short story. And in the short story–it was about when I was robbed at gunpoint when we lived in the Dominican Republic. In the real story, our friend was upstairs in the apartment, and the rest of us were locked out of the apartment. Because it had one of those big metal doors that shut and locked you out when you step outside.

And when she gave it back to me, she said, ‘Remove this character–the guy that was up in the apartment. Nobody cares about him. He has nothing to do with the story.’ And I said, ‘But he was there. He was part of the experience and we were trying to call him.’ She’s like, ‘It doesn’t matter. Your reader doesn’t care.’ And that’s something I have really pulled forward. It’s not only the stories that you choose, but also the details within those stories. So as you are planning your book, you can start to think about, ‘There were three of us there. But does this third person actually matter to the point that I’m trying to make in this story?’

Carla King 7:29

Great example. And let’s dive into the details. You did mention book concept, and the core components of a concept. What does that mean–a book concept?

Stacy Ennis 7:43

I think about a book concept as a 1-2 page high level overview of your book. And it’s really well thought out, right? So when I coach people through this, what I have them do–I have them do a number of different worksheets and activities to eventually come up with some refined statements that they add to this book concept. So book concept typically includes the working title for your book. Which, by the way, anyone listening–do not overthink your working title. Just pick something descriptive and move on. It’s definitely going to change later 99% of the time. So pick a working title. Then it’s your book’s core message. So what is that through line from first word to last word that guides every single thing? Every decision you make, how you structure your book–what is that connective tissue of your book? That’s your core message.

Then it has a book overview. So this is a high level description of the book that you plan to write. I usually also have a structure section. So this is where you’ll describe the type of structure that you plan to have for your book. For example, it’s chronological, or it’s a how-to book broken up into seven steps. And you’ll detail that. You’ll also have your reader–ideal reader–section. And I like to create reader personas. So these are real people–well, not real people. They’re fictional people, usually based on real people. Give the person a name, give them an occupation, what gets them out of bed in the morning, what makes them lay awake at night. This is really defining your one reader for your book, and then also your larger reader group. So I like to include both. So I have one anchor reader that I think about–or my clients think about–as their writing. But then a larger description of who that group is that they’re writing to.

And then it also includes important considerations. This is a section I always include on book concepts. As an example–the book that you mentioned earlier, that I co- authored with Ron Price. So it’s a business fable, and it’s an older retired CEO and a younger tech manager woman. So male, female. And so in our important considerations, it was really an important note for us to keep at the heart of everything that we didn’t want it to be this patriarchal, ‘I’m this experienced older man. And I’m going to tell you young women how things work.’ And so we had that in our book concept.

This book concept lives with your book all the way through to publication. So you can give it to your editor. If you work with a publisher, you can give it to them. You can give it to your cover designer, you can give it to your marketer, if you hire somebody for marketing, or you have an assistant that’s going to support you. So it’s this really great, valuable document that quickly anchors people to your project. And, as an author, it is one of the most important pieces that you have to keep you motivated. Because, when you get to those points where you’re like, ‘What’s the point of this? Nobody’s gonna want to read this. I’m tired, I’m just going to put this away for a few months,’ you go back to that book concept, you reread it, you remind yourself of that reader and why you’re writing this book. You remind yourself of the key takeaways and the purpose behind it. So it’s a really powerful anchor for the author, and then also for anybody else that touches a project.

Carla King 11:07

And it also sounds like it does double duty as material for a book proposal.

Stacy Ennis 11:13

Yes, oh, yes. Any of this can pull into, for sure, a book proposal. Now some of the sections–like the ideal reader–would be more detailed in a book proposal. So when I work with people, I have a reader persona that they fill out that’s multiple pages. But that element that you have to add in a book proposal would be data, right? Doing more research on it, and really making the case for why the book’s going to sell.

Carla King 11:39

So let’s talk about your tips for outlining the whole book, and then maybe dive deeper into chapter outlining.

Stacy Ennis 11:47

So a couple things to keep in mind when you’re outlining a book. One is that, even–I call it a ‘nonfictiony nonfiction,’ so we’re talking a how-to book or a big idea book. But maybe it’s a big idea, how-to combo that’s even very, very practical. Even those types of books have narrative arcs.

And so, when you’re organizing a nonfiction book, you need to think about–the way I think about it is information intensity, and emotional intensity. And so there should be an arc in how the reader comes into the book, and how you build them into the learning journey that they’re taking, or their transformative journey, or the storytelling journey that they’re taking. And you don’t just throw them to the wolves. You should guide them in through the first chapter, you kind of build in that intensity, and then you guide that down and you close out the book. And so there is that narrative arc.

So sometimes when I am outlining a book, or coaching somebody through it, we will actually kind of graph out, ‘How information rich is this? Or how emotionally intense is this?’ Or we’ll come up with some metrics that we can measure each chapter, to make sure that it’s really a good guide for the reader, or a good journey for the reader. The other thing that you need to think about is–in what order do I need to share this information with my reader? This is specific to a how-to book or big idea book. Maybe you have a big idea. And that big idea is comprised of seven components–seven elements–but there is not really any rhyme or reason yet. You’re working through, ‘How do I share this idea?’ Then you can think about, ‘If I want my reader to be transformed by this idea, in what sequence–in what order–do they need to journey through this information? And you can just start to order it that way. And really think about it like a journey for your reader.

The other thing I suggest is–don’t forget that you need a first chapter and a last chapter. I find that people forget this a lot in their books. They just jump into the content, and they forget that the first chapter–it needs to hook and engage the reader, it needs to lay out the foundation of the book and make them want to keep reading, it needs to tell them what the promise of the book is–what they’re going to get from this book, and convince them that it’s worth their time and energy to continue reading. It needs to build trust in you as the author. And often–depending on the type of book–it also needs to tell them how to use the book. So they need to understand how to engage in the book, and in what way do they move forward.

And then the last chapter needs to kind of do the opposite, in some ways. It needs to help them see how much they’ve gained through reading this nonfiction book. And also, in doing that, it’s not just like, ‘First we covered this, then we covered that,’ but it’s also showing the reader how much they have already transformed, or learned, or gained–kind of summarizing it for them, so that they can pull that through and remember it. Because a book is long, and it is easy to forget things. And then it’s also, hopefully, going to nudge them toward action. So the question I ask there is, ‘What do I want my reader to feel and do when they’re done reading this chapter?’ So what do I want them to experience–to feel? And then what do I want them to do when they’re done–when they close the book? Oh, and the other one is remember.

So it’s feel, do, and remember. When they close the book. I go and I read this book, and I come to you, Carla, and I say, ‘I just read this great book about…’ –what do you want them to say? And if you want them to say something specific, you have to give that to them. So that they know it, and they can repeat it, right? So that’s something you’d have to seed and give to them.

Carla King 15:47

Yeah, I have also been a developmental editor, mostly. And I keep telling authors, ‘Don’t worry about the first chapter until you’re finished with the book.’ The first and the last chapter. Because a lot of writers waste a lot of time rewriting the beginning. And then, as an editor, I often ask them to throw out the first three or four chapters because they keep writing about their childhood or something. They’re not starting in the action, or what the reader has picked up the book to learn. So it is a great way to save time–is to just forget about that first chapter. And oftentimes–I don’t know–do you feel like sometimes a book might change, and then the first chapter also has to change to reflect the introduction of the material?

Stacy Ennis 16:40

100%. And I’ve authored and ghost written 17 books myself. And I would say–100% of those situations, I’ve rewritten the first chapter. I personally–and everybody’s different, right? But I don’t personally like to skip the first chapter. I usually write a really ugly fast draft of the first chapter, and I know I’m going to rewrite it later. But it’s hard for me, when I’m writing a book, to have a lot of gaps. So when I get to the end, I want to feel like I’ve completed that first ugly draft. And then I’d like to come back and have at least something to work with in the first chapter, because I just find it’s difficult to just have it be empty. But everybody’s different with how they approach it. But I agree–maybe 60-80% of that gets rewritten almost every time. Of was the first chapter. If not, it’s a miracle.

Carla King 17:33

Yeah. It can take so much time. And I did want to clarify something. Chapter sequencing–is that what you’re calling a narrative arc to a how-to book?

Stacy Ennis 17:45

I would say they feed each other, right? They would need to be sequenced in a way that builds out that arc as well. But you know, probably, Carla, I would imagine–because you’re so experienced as an editor–you do that intuitively. For people that are learning this, I think it’s helpful to give that–what you probably are doing naturally, because you’re experienced–a lens, or a way to measure, and a way to think about it. Like, ‘How much am I loading up my reader? How early? And how do I guide them into that?’ But yeah, I would imagine that probably comes naturally to you with your experience.

Carla King 18:19

So what is the difference between narrative arc and chapter sequence?

Stacy Ennis 18:24

So what I would say is–narrative arc would be, ‘What is the flow of this book as a whole?’ And it depends on the type of book, right? Like, ‘What is the emotional intensity of this transformation I want them to go on–maybe through a big idea, or the story I’m telling?’ Or, ‘What is the thing that I want them to learn and be able to do throughout this book? And how am I going to guide them from an information perspective through that journey?’

When I think about sequencing, that is the order by which I tell or teach things. And so they’re connected, but they’re separate. What you could do is–when you determine the sequence, then that would also give you some information. Let’s say–we had the idea earlier of a big idea with seven components to it. That would also give me some information about, ‘Early on in the first chapter, how deep am I diving into this piece of the seven components?’ Or, When do I really throw in that really big ‘AHA?’ When does that come in? And how do I guide them there?’

The arc is more of a measure of intensity and information load, and also kind of a check on the sequence, I would say. It helps you think through whether they are in the right order, whether it is given to them in the right way. So they’re kind of married, but they’re also used in a different way. Like you couldn’t graph the sequence, but you can graph the narrative arc, if that makes sense.

Carla King 19:55

Right. Thank you. All right, let’s dive into the chapter outlining. That’s pretty detailed.

Stacy Ennis 20:02

Yeah, I love that you already mentioned ‘middle of the action’–starting in the middle of action. That’s one of those pro tips that is so helpful for new authors–to think about storytelling, and starting in a moment versus, ‘One day, when I was walking down the boardwalk…’

But when I think about outlining a chapter–just at a very basic level–I like to instruct–especially new authors–to think about those five paragraph essays that they did in college, and how you organized those. And planning a chapter from just an outlining perspective can be very similar to that. You have an opening section, you have some key points that are in your chapter, and then you have a closing section. When I outline a chapter, I always make sure to include all of the different components of the chapter–including that opening story, I usually say a story statistic quote–there’s something that you’re opening with that engages the reader. And then I always include that there is a powerful close out and lead into the next chapter. That when you finish a chapter, it’s like, ‘I gotta keep reading, that’s so interesting.’ I also include those in my outline. Even if I’m not sure yet what story I’m going to put in there, I always include them in the outline.

And the piece here that I hope people will take away is that–even in, again, a ‘nonfictiony nonfiction’, like a how-to or something that’s very technical or very practical–storytelling is truly one of the most underutilized tools of influence in helping people learn, helping them remember the concepts that you want to teach them. And when I think about storytelling–and this goes a little outside the scope of outline, but it might help readers or listeners in how they’re outlining–this is something we learned in high school and college–how do you bring the reader into that story? Even, again, if it’s a very practical book, you can still tell a great story to illustrate a point.

And when I teach authors how to do this, one of the things that I suggest is–when you are about to write a story–so let’s say you’ve planned it, and it’s in your outline–what story you’re gonna write–and you’re about to write it. Close your eyes and try to relive that story from your own perspective. What people will often do when they’re trying to remember something and write about it is–they’ll kind of look in on the memory, they’ll kind of be detached from the memory itself. But if you can put yourself back in that moment–and this is a quote from my dad. My dad actually taught me this–‘See what you can see, hear what you can hear, and feel what you can feel.’ And then translate that into the story that you’re telling, and include sensory details to bring it into life.

But also, to your earlier point, focus on the details that matter to the reader and matter to the point that you’re making. So maybe there was a really good smelling carrot soup in your story, but it has nothing to do with anything that you’re going to make a point about. That sensory detail wouldn’t be included. But what can you bring in? And then, here’s a really important piece in outlining that will connect to what I just told the listeners about storytelling.

When you seed that first story–you tell the opening story, or data point, or statistic, or quote, or whatever it is you open your chapter with–one of the really key pieces that makes something feel whole in a whole book, or in an individual chapter, is connecting back to that opening thing–opening story opening data point–at the end of the chapter.

And so when you’re planning your chapter, you need to think about that through line for the whole book. But then you also need to think about the through line of that chapter. And how this story that you’re opening with, or the data point, relates to all the things that you’re going to teach, or tell, or share. And then how are you going to close this in a way that ties that bow, closes that loop, and helps that feel final–helps that chapter feel complete and whole? But then you also have to do a little dance out into the next chapter, and connect to the next idea. Now, good news is–you don’t have to do all that in the first chapter. So oftentimes, that’s something that comes about in second drafts. But it’s helpful to think about when you’re outlining, and when you’re writing.

Carla King 24:42

I was just wondering about that, and you said it–so close the circle in each chapter, but loop into the next chapter. And then in the last chapter, give them something to talk about and give them actions, right? So that loop goes out into their world.

Stacy Ennis 25:02

Yes. I love how you phrased that. Yes.

Carla King 25:06

So now it’s just a matter of filling in the blanks. Easy peasy, right?

Stacy Ennis 25:12

You mean expanding the outline?

Carla King 25:15

And now you just simply write. Is it as easy as that?

Stacy Ennis 25:20

So you mean once the outline is completed, and then it’s time to sit down and write your book?

Carla King 25:24

Yes.

Stacy Ennis 25:25

One of the things that I often remind new authors is that–you can only outline so far. There are some things that you can only discover in the writing process. So when you get to a point where you feel like your outline is done, I highly recommend that you print it, and you work from a printed copy. That you’re not always in this electronic document, and changing things, and moving things around. But actually, that you move it to a physical space, and you work from this one document. And you bless and release any notions you had about how everything’s going to work out. And embrace the writing process, knowing that sometimes things will shift and change.

As an example, chapter two might have the section that you thought lived there, but actually, it’s going to work in chapter seven. And so, you just make a little asterisks, and you put ‘Chapter Seven.’ And you make a little asterisk in chapter seven, you put, ‘Move from Chapter Two.’ It’s like those kinds of things that you do as you write.

But from a success standpoint–Carla, you know that many people are not successful at finishing their drafts. This is a sad fact–something I am on a mission to change. And one of the things that we can do to ensure that success, is to create a writing plan. This is also why an outline is so helpful, because now you have an idea of how many chapters you’re going to write. If you pay attention to the amount of words that you can write in a writing session, you can start to math out about how long it will take to write a chapter. I find, on average, if you don’t want to blow up your life, about two weeks, roughly–if you’re consistently writing 1-2 hours a day for 3-4 days a week, 3-5 days a week, depending on how prolific of a writer you are–that can be about enough time to write a chapter. Some people need a little longer, some people need a little less.

But then what I do is–I actually take that outline, and I put it into Asana–which is project management software–and I calendar all of it out. And then, when I get to about 50% completion on the draft, I–the new phrase I’m using is, ‘Put a ring on it.’ I hired an editor and I put a deposit down so that I have some skin in the game, and motivation to get it done, and a promised deadline for that editor, which creates accountability.

Carla King 27:47

Editing, and having an editor, even for an experienced writer who might be an editor herself or himself is so important. You really do need that second set of eyes. Are you talking about a copy editor, line editor, developmental editor?

Stacy Ennis 28:01

It really depends on the book and the author’s experience. So for me–because I’m very experienced at writing books–these days, I hire what’s called a manuscript review. And I have the editor just go through and do a high level review. And they give me high level feedback, and then chapter by chapter feedback high level, and then page by page, they’ll give me some comments. But back in the day–my first book, I had developmental edit, developmental edit, copy edit, copy edit. It was many rounds of each thing. And also, depending on the complexity of the book–there’s so many factors, right? It just depends on that particular project.

Carla King 28:42

Right. We had JoEllen Nordstrom on, talking about all the different kinds of editing, if anybody wants to go back and listen to that. It’s super valuable. So you’ve told us what a book outline is, and creating a writing plan. I love the tip on using Asana–it’s a tool that I use every day for project management, and hiring things out for my assistant, and the different projects that I have, because I can’t keep talking. It’s like your brain on a scheduler. Thank you so much. And I know that you teach, and you talk, and you have programs. Why don’t you tell us how people can find you, and what you’re doing next?

Stacy Ennis 29:27

This has been such a good conversation. I’ve really enjoyed it. And I think it’s such a treat to get to talk to somebody with experience–we can talk shop a little. But also, I hope it’s been super valuable to listeners, and we’ve been able to keep it at a level that new authors or experienced authors can gain value.

So I have three core ways that people can work with me. One is–we offer ghostwriting through my team. So we do ‘Done For You’ drafts, and we really specialize in business and leadership. These are bespoke manuscripts–we really put a lot of heart, energy, time, and talent into those.

I also do one-on-one book coaching. So I work specifically with people who are publishing, or writing business, leadership, or some kind of social good. I’ve had a lot of equity books lately–those have been just such a joy to work on as well.

And then I also have a program. It’s called Nonfiction Book School. And I’m smiling as I talk about it. We’re just about to open our next cohort. We do it once a year. The doors to nonfiction book school are open January 9-23rd. If you’re listening to this slightly after that, you are very welcome to reach out to me. Our cohort begins February 14, 2023. And this is just such an incredible, amazing program of like-minded authors who are all working toward a shared goal of making an impact. To me, that’s the difference maker. And it’s such a great compliment to the Nonfiction Authors Association. In the past, Stephanie has given conference access and membership to Nonfiction Book School students, because really, it’s such a great next step for people. You guys offer so much value at all stages of authorhood.

What this program offers is–it’s more of a coaching program. It’s live access to me, we do coaching calls, we meet every week, we have group accountability, it’s step-by-step education. And it’s just so much fun, and I love it so much. So anybody who’s interested in this, you can go to nonfictionbookschool.com. And then you’re also always welcome to reach out to me at hello@stacyennis.com.

Carla King 31:45

Thanks so much for being with us, Stacy. And good luck with the program. I look forward to hearing about it.

Stacy Ennis 31:51

Thank you so much, Carla. This was just a joy–to talk with you, and get to share more information about this, and geek out on book outlines and writing.

Carla King 32:01

I know. We have to talk more about that. Outlines can be exciting.

Stacy Ennis 32:05

Yes, they can. Thank you for having me.

Carla King 32:09

And thank you to our listeners for joining us today and every week. For a list of guests and topics just check our schedule on the site, use your favorite search engine, or better yet, sign up for our mailing list at NonfictionAuthorsAssociation.com.

Quotes from our guest

“From a creative standpoint, it actually frees you to create. And this is where a lot of people will say, ‘Well, I don’t like to plan, because then it’s going to stifle my creativity, and I’m not going to be able to be free when I’m writing.’ But it actually does the absolute reverse of that. When you do all of the basic structural work ahead of time, there’s some cool things that happen at a neurological level for planning–just as you sleep, or as you get ready to do your next writing session. It also frees you of the hard work of structure, so that when you sit down to write, you can just create. It really enables productivity and creativity which is, I think, a really cool bonus of creating an outline.”

“So [your book concept is] this really great, valuable document that quickly anchors people to your project. And, as an author, it is one of the most important pieces that you have to keep you motivated. Because, when you get to those points where you’re like, ‘What’s the point of this? Nobody’s gonna want to read this. I’m tired, I’m just going to put this away for a few months,’ you go back to that book concept, you reread it, you remind yourself of that reader and why you’re writing this book. You remind yourself of the key takeaways and the purpose behind it. So it’s a really powerful anchor for the author, and then also for anybody else that touches a project.”

“And the piece here that I hope people will take away is that–even in, again, a ‘nonfictiony nonfiction,’ like a how-to or something that’s very technical or very practical–storytelling is truly one of the most underutilized tools of influence in helping people learn, helping them remember the concepts that you want to teach them. And when I think about storytelling–and this goes a little outside the scope of outline, but it might help readers or listeners in how they’re outlining–this is something we learned in high school and college–how do you bring the reader into that story?”